ETH 88: Refining Eden Fractal's Vision Statement

Dan welcomes everyone to Eden Town Hall on October 8, 2026, the third set of events in Eden Fractal's 13th season

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[music]

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Hello and welcome to Eden Town Hall. We're here for Eden Fractalto period 147. I believe the date is October 8th

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of 2026. We're in our third set of events of season 13. And it's a pleasure to be here with the Das and Rose versus

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Marie and Zal. And well, we're going to have a town hall discussion here. Um,

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and then we'll play the respect game in 45 minutes or an hour or so. Um, I can

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go ahead and share a little intro to kick us off with topics and stuff like that. A little intro presentation. Does

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that sound like a good idea? Yep. All right.

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I'm a little nasely because I'm a little bit under the weather, but hopefully you all uh enjoy the presentation nonetheless. I'll keep it pretty short.

Dan shares a short intro on the new Thursday 14 UTC time, Eden Fractal's mission, and recent videos

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Um, [clears throat] so yeah, uh, we're here at our fairly

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newly appointed time of Thursdays at 14 UTC. Um, and we're, uh, back again to

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continue advancing Ian Fact's mission to implement fractal decision-making processes throughout society and help optimize and improve collective

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decision-making for all communities, organizations. Um, you can see this tweet from Eden Creators with more

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details about how to get involved and kind of a quick overview about uh where we're at. Um, Edeno.com shares where

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we're at right now. This uh community forum where we discuss the future of collaborative decision-m and and

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governance and edenpart.com for anybody who's not familiar, but everyone here knows all about that. Um, we'll have our

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next events I guess in two weeks. Well, definitely in two weeks from now, which I guess is on October 21st, 22nd. Um,

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and then the most recent videos have been published now. They're on the Eden Fractal Eden Town Hall websites in case

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you haven't checked them out. Uh, last Eden Town Hall, we had a great discussion with Eric about Career Catalyst Collaborative and how he's

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working to implement practical decision-making processes with nonprofits and students and we played a great respect game two weeks ago as

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well. Uh, that was on the September 24th event. All those videos are published on the Eden Creator YouTube channel. So,

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um, if you haven't checked them out already, then I encourage you to do so. And as far as the topic for today's

Dan introduces today's open discussion and notes that council delegates are in attendance to approve proposals

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event, uh we have an open discussion. So Eden creator shared this message in the Eden factor telegram group and talked

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about how we can continue season 13 discussion. Explore plans to advance Eden Fractal's mission in the coming months and it's open to thoughts about

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Eden Fractal and the wider fractal ecosystem as well as brainstorming what the community inspires to achieve this

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season and how the Eden plus council is also meeting during this town hall. I believe that Rosemary has two seats in

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the council and I have one seat and Das has one seat and Z was a counselor but I think his seat expired uh as of last

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week I think if I'm not mistaken. So we do have counselors in attendance to approve proposals if we so choose. Um so

Dan suggests updating Eden Fractal's vision statement and upgrading community infrastructure for priorities, coordination, and capital

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you have any amazing topics and let us know. I also uh put out this message in the Ed Telegram group yesterday thinking

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about or I mentioned how we're not currently using any kind of formal system or game for choosing topics. I

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figured it'd be helpful to share a couple topics that I've had on my mind lately and might help inspire some useful conversations. Um, so one of

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these was about uh Eden Fractal's vision statement. Um, currently Eden Fractal's vision statement um, it was something

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that we worked on a lot about 3 years ago and uh, the statement is that Edento believes that all community

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organizations should have the tools and methods to make the best decision- making possible or the best possible decision-m fair, fast, and fun. And

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there's a whole bunch of videos about that and stuff where we discuss that. Um, so I started drafting a new vision

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statement that expands on our current version and makes what I believe to be some compelling improvements to our

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vision. So happy to discuss that and share some of the draft proposals and documents if that would be useful. I'm

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very curious to hear your thoughts about that. And the second topic that I suggested was that um it could be

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valuable to discuss how the Edentor community could improve upon its infrastructure for collectively forming priorities, coordinating action,

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allocating capitals. And I have a lot of ideas and and I know everybody on this call also has a lot of ideas about this

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kind of thing too. Um and some of these ideas are about how we can build upon prior experiments uh that we've done

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here at Eden Fractal and begin to upgrade our infrastructure over the coming months. And I wrote how this could involve some important technical

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and legal innovations that could help us achieve our mission actualizer vision. And I'd be interested to hear what everybody thinks about this. Also maybe

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some general thoughts before diving into details, but happy to share more thoughts on that too. And then yeah, if anybody has any uh uh I suppose interest

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in these topics in particular, then let me know. I appreciate any feedback as well and happy to go into more detail

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about these. And if there's any other topic that you want to discuss in general that's related to Eden fractal

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or better collective decision-m processes uh then let us know and uh tasal

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um curious what you'd like to discuss. That was kind of just my thinking about things that might be helpful to discuss,

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but yeah, curious to hear what you think. Yeah, let's talk about the vision statement. I think that'd be a good one

Rosmari suggests a quick brainstorm on the vision statement

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for all four of us to just like real quick brainstorm. Do you want to just read us the previous one?

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Sure, sounds good. So, um, and yet and

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please let us know if you have a preference uh about how to how to organize this hour as well. Um,

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that sounds good to me. Okay, cool. Well, Rosemary Marine has

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two seats in the in in the delegate, so uh two seats in the council, so that's

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that's pretty uh it's a pretty strong recommendation.

Dan reads the current vision statement and recalls how the community formed consensus on it in 2023

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Um, okay. So the current vision statement is that Eden Fractto believes

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that all communities and organizations should have the tools and methods to make the best possible decision-m fair,

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fast, and fun. And this is this is it says our vision,

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but to me I think this is really a vision statement. Um like our vision is broader. And in this uh page.com/vision,

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we have I think six or seven videos where we specifically discussed the vision over the years and we played some

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different games and we came up with a bunch of different visions that were much more detailed and comprehensive. But basically over the course of the end

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of 2023, we distilled it down and we formed consensus uh with the current community at the time that this is the

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vision statement that concisely explains Eden Fractal's vision. in vector believes that all companies

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organizations should have the tools and methods to make the best possible decision-m fair, fast, and fun.

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So, if you want, I can share my draft idea as well. Um, and what I was

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thinking about potential ways that we can improve upon that um and happy to do that now if if that would be a good

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direction or if you guys any comments um then feel free to jump in.

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Go crazy, man. Okay. Thanks, Z. So, I was thinking that uh

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being that Z told me to go crazy, I got a new vision. Eden Fractto believes that we should go crazy. No, just kidding. Obviously, um I'm going to share a new

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one uh or a new idea. [laughter] Um let's see. I just had it open here

Dan explains his draft, inspired by talks with Tadas and Rosmari, starting with the awkward phrase "make the best possible decision-making"

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yesterday. Okay, so I I drafted a proposal

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um and a analysis document, which I've I was I was reading yesterday. that I

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thought about a lot two days ago uh after I had a discussion with Tadas and Rosemary and another discussion with Rosemary too. So this is just by the way

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very much inspired by conversations I've had with Tadas and Rose Marie over the past couple months as well as just in

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general like thinking about our vision over the past three years since we formed it. Um and I really like this

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vision but I think that there are some ways to improve it. And so I wanted to keep most of it intact. Um, one thing

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that's always bothered me a little bit about this is just a after we approved this at the council at the time or it

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wasn't even the council, this was like our interim governance process in a way when when we weren't doing respect games or councils. Um, this part make the best

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decision making or or make the best possible decision-m it just sounded awkward to me and I realized that afterwards. So, that was one thing that

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that I wanted to like make some slight adjustment to like it just it just sounded awkward. Make the best possible

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decision making. make decision- making. Um, so that was one little thing that I wanted to refine. Um, and then I felt

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like, uh, and this was specifically something that I really started thinking about a lot after I was I stuck with the rest the other day. Um, I feel like

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there could be more to it. Um, so my change that I'm suggesting is really

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mostly just just making some slight refinement like to the word make there and then basically adding another sentence and maybe just uh making the

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the second sentence fair, fast, and fun into more of a full sentence. Um, because right now I feel like it kind of like it ends on fair, fast, and fun,

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which kind of ends on like the experience and it's very important that decision-m is fun, but um, I feel like

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there's like a very strong emphasis on it being fun right now. Um, and there's

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also like I think that decision- making it's an end in itself and it's a

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valuable end in itself. Um, and

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there's there's two parts of things that we're trying to convey when we talk about decision-m. There is the decision

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that happens. That's the output of the decision-m um, and that's very important. Decisions

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are very important. Uh and then there's the decision making and that's the process of it. like how do groups actually come together and make a

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decision and is that a uh experience that people feel is fair that people feel is enjoyable that is fast that is

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efficient effective and so forth and so we want to and that's one of the reasons why we chose the word decision making for there as opposed to decisions or at

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the time we also thought about governance and all sorts of different words but we w up thinking decision-m was the best term which I still really

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like the term decision-m for these reasons Um but yeah, I I was thinking more about

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this and as I was discussing this with Rosemir, she shared some great thoughts that made me think that uh

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it might be helpful to widen the scope a bit because even when you have a great decision-m process and you really uh

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people feel it's a very fair and fun and fast decision-m experience

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um that's valuable in itself. And then also when you make a good decision

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that's valuable in itself too, but is that the ultimate end that we see in our

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vision? Uh maybe we choose to keep it at at this

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scope. Um and maybe that's best. But the thing that I started thinking was that

Dan suggests decisions are a means to an end and proposes describing what better decisions enable

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um decisions are a means to an end. Um and they're very important themselves and the and the process of making

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decisions is very important. But also I think it would be more compelling if our vision explains more about what that end

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is that better decisions and better decision-m enable.

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So with that in mind, I started thinking

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about and and and this was things that I was discussing with Rose Marie on the on on the call largely like like we're

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going over well what does a decision enable and some things that came up was that it

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helps people coordinate collective action. when people are making better decisions,

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they're more empowered or more able to coordinate collective action and ultimately achieve what they

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want to do together, like ultimately achieve their shared goals together. So, that was um some elements of a

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sentence that I suggest adding here. Um and maybe I'll pull it up now, the the

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draft version that I have, and this is not like a final draft, but I'm very curious to your feedback. Maybe it's a

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final draft. I don't know. I think it's an improvement over what we have right now, but also I'm open to be um to to be

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convinced otherwise too. Um this does make it a bit longer. Um, so, um,

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maybe there's some reason to stick with what we have and, um,

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and that may very well be true, but I think that adding a sentence here can make it more uh, more evocative in a

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way, more of a vision that doesn't leave up to people's imagination about what

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the world is like that we envision when people have better decision-m processes and the tools and the methods to really

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make the best possible decision. isions and the best possible decision-m experiences.

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So the thing that I came up with here is um

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[snorts] [clears throat]

Dan reads his draft with a new sentence about coordinating collective action and achieving shared goals

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is we believe that all communities and organizations should have the tools and methods for the best possible decision-m. All collective decisions

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should be fair, fast, and fun. This empowers everyone to more effectively coordinate collective action and achieve

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shared goals from improving the quality of life to each individual to solving humanity's grandest challenges.

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I see your hands up. Yeah. So, first impressions.

Tadas shares that the draft is longer and the ending sounds like boilerplate for any public good organization

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uh it's longer and the question is how is how

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succinctness how how short should the vision statement be? Um,

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and also I feel like the the ending is kind of obvious and how to say

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boilerplate like it could be on virtually

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any public good companies. It could be part of any public good

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company's uh uh vision.

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Uh by the ending, do you mean the full last sentence or just the part after the comma?

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Yeah. After the comma like in the end, like if you're serving public good,

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you're serving uh some version of that.

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And uh yeah, I get I guess it's it stresses the importance of collective

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action and collective decision making, but um I don't know for me that's

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maybe too obvious to mention and it expands it too much.

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So those are just first impressions. Thank you for the feedback and first

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impressions. Could I ask just um just to try to dissect a better

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understand what you mean? Um so you specifically were you meaning that

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the second part of the last sentence with all that but but this first part or

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this first added sentence this empowers everyone to more effectively coordinate collective action and achieve shared goals. Do you have any feedback on that

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specifically? I I don't like how much it expands the

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whole statement. Uh

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but

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I don't know but uh what you made what you said about

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uh collective action that it's maybe uh like

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more important and than the actual decision making. That kind of makes sense. I'm not sure if I'm on board with

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focusing on collective action in the vision statement, but uh I mean I see

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what you're getting. I see what you're trying to do here with mentioning

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collective action and shared goals.

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Uh but I would try to make it shorter maybe at the at the cost of uh

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not mention mentioning decision making even but focusing on collective action

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and coordination but I I don't know if we want to do that just just thinking

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out loud

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Thanks for the feedback and good points. I'm happy to um respond

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to some of those thoughts now. If Ros you want to jump in or if there's anything else you want to share then go ahead otherwise I can start responding

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to some of that. You can respond.

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Okay. Um, so I mean I like the Oh, go ahead.

Rosmari asks whether the ending about humanity's grandest challenges is needed

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Oh, I I also I'm thinking if uh the part from that starts from

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and ends on challenges, which is the last section. Mhm.

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Um if it's that's needed. Mhm.

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That's also something I thought of.

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Okay. Well, that would make it significantly shorter to remove that last part.

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So, thanks for the feedback there. And I know you mentioned that yesterday

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as well, too. So, that might be uh that might be something given that we've gotten that feedback three times now.

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[laughter] We're we're zero for three right now or I'm zero for three with this last

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sentence landing. Um so, okay. Um, I'm open to removing that. And

Dan responds that decision-making is the core enabler of collective action and shared goals

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yeah, and Tas's last point about focusing more on collective action, like on the

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potential that you said you weren't sure about. I mean, that'd be a significant change if we change it from decision-m

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to collective action or achieving shared goals and like that. I'm open to it. Um,

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and yeah, I'm glad you see like the line of thought that I'm going for. And I didn't mean to say that like collective

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action and shared goals are more important than collective decision-m

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because I think what we're like you could kind of boil it down and distill it and say that

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this this collective decision-m is really a core focus. I've always kind of felt like what we're doing

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benefits in more than just collective decision-m. Um like it has all these other benefits. Like I always talked

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about networking. People really enjoy that at the ZFrack even though they're not really doing so much decision- making yet. Like there's a lot of

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collective networking and collective um coordination going on there. And so

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because what we're doing with practical decision-m processes and respect games and everything like that, it it kind of

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touches on and benefits so many different ways. It also brings people together and forms friendships and builds relationships and stuff like that. But like I think we had to choose

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what was the core uh when we were deciding this vision and well we chosed

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the core at the time which I think you can make a very good argument for is still collective decision-m um and then

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all those other benefits that come with it um are visions that we could have and

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I think part of the broader vision but are they worthy to be in the vision statement or the main

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uh the main the main goal in the vision statement And I don't know. So, I'm I'm open to changing that, but I think that

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there's still a lot of good reasons to focus on collective decision-m

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um as like kind of the core enabler in a way of uh of collective action and

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achieving shared goals. Because I think that like you can make a good argument that

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community, organizations could much more effectively coordinate collective action and achieve shared goals if they had

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better decision-making processes. Um, and when they have better decision-m processes, then they'll be much more

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effective at coordinating collective action and achieve shared goals. And so my thinking was just that it's not more

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important or less important to achieve shared goals versus collective action versus decision-m. I think like

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decision-m is the leverage point. I was thinking about this uh the other night as well, but the Archimedes lever. Um,

Dan compares decision-making to the Archimedes lever as a point of very high leverage

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let me pull up a picture of this. I'm not sure if you've seen this before or or heard this. Um, if I go over here

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and I pull up an image of the Archimese lever,

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um, this is like what it made me think of here.

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Um, there's this there's this phrase Argam I think he's like um from Greek

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mythology or something like that. Yeah, it's coming up here. inventor of a Greek mathematician who was talking about

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leverage and he says give me a place to stand on and I'll move the earth and the whole idea of leverage is like you know

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some things you could do are very high leverage sometimes you might do something very simple and it might have huge ROI and huge benefits uh whereas

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some things you might do and you don't have much leverage and you could work for hours and hours and days and days and years and years and not really make that much progress and so I feel like uh

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perhaps more than anything in the world um decision-m is like a huge point of

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leverage basically. And that's something that that we focus on that can help people navigate through whatever kinds

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of situations they may be dealing with um and ultimately achieve their goals,

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but also before they achieve their goals, they coordinate collective action. Um so like decision-m is this

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lever that helps people uh with very high leverage to effectively coordinate

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collective action because they know who should do what, what should they do, etc. uh and achieve their shared goals

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ultimately. Um and what I was trying to achieve with this last sentence was try to describe the all the different types

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of shared goals that this could be from the smallest to the largest. Um but also I'm okay with not having that vision

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statement too if that's already obvious. I see Z has hands up so I'll pass it over to Zel. Yeah, I just say in [clears throat] my

Zaal shares that collective action is the output and decision-making is the input

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opinion it's a lot more about the collective action than the decision making. So I I liked what you said at

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the very end there that the decision-m leads to the collective action. So the the decision-m is just a means to the

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end for collective action because that is what we want. I I personally feel the

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uh crypto or blockchain space or or cryptography in general has a lot of

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people that love like saying XYZ thing in theory um and like decision making on

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all these like amazing ideals but then when it actually comes into practice it's really hard to enact that. So I

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think um being able to make decisions is great but it doesn't mean anything if um

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even if you only have XYZ amount of people if they can't come together and make action um other than decision-

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making. So um my big thing is just like I want to make sure that that collective action part being the output is very

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clear that that's why our input is the decision making if that makes sense.

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Yeah, that makes sense. You mind responding to that last sent you mind? Yeah. You mind repeating that last

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sentence again? Just the fact that I would love for it to really explain that

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the the output that we want is collective um action and the input that

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we can provide with this is decision making, right? And I think you said it

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really well at the at the end there when you're talking. Um, and I just really want to emphasize that part where it's

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like it's not about the decision making. That's just the means to the end. The collective action is what we're really

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focused on. Mhm.

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Yeah, that's a good point. [cough and clears throat] Because like to be honest with you, if one person can make decisions but like

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50 people act on that, that's how corporations are built and done, right? So I don't think that that's the way we

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should rock it out and I think that's the whole point of this space. But um the decision-m doesn't need to be uh be

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all end all for collective action. That's that's my point more than anything.

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Very interesting. Thank you all. I see I I see his hands up. Yeah. But to respond to Zo, what is the

Tadas argues the right action is the one that most accurately represents community consensus

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correct action? And for me, when it comes to governance

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of organizations, the right action is the one that most accurately

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represents community consensus. uh even if it's like objectively a wrong

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action in some way in some way uh it will potentially lead to organization

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learning from its mistake. Uh whereas if uh it does not represent consensus of

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community then then it it just

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it doesn't lead anywhere from my perspective.

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uh consensus is value in itself and to achieve consensus you that's the realm

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of decision making. Um this uh people who have

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who are familiar with Dan Limemer's work uh know his idea of means justifying the

Tadas references Dan Larimer's idea that in governance the means justify the ends

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ends. Uh he's basically in his book he made a

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proposition that when it comes to governance uh

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the right approach is means justify the ends instead of ends justifying the

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means. And uh example of that is that uh

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like in a democracy like the right action is the one that represents the

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will of people. Um,

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yeah. So, so I

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personally I'm I'm aligned with that and uh um I'm wondering like how how

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we could uh if you could make it even clearer in in the vision

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uh or if you want to make it clear. I think in instead of I think we can be

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more clear where we in the vision it says for the best decision

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making. I have to open the

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I [clears throat] just shared it in in the Zoom chat too. Uh I stopped the screen share if you want to pull it back up again uh just so we can see

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yourselves better. But I shared the the current draft minus the uh that last part that seems like we might

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want to remove uh in the Zoom chat. So you can see it there. So also mentioned invented the sea or

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something. I guess that was uh that was Archimedes and coordination more in his opinion.

Rosmari suggests "best possible decision-making" is open to interpretation and could be more specific

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Uh but yeah, go ahead. uh resume what to just described

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uh with he said I think um how it represents

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to represent the will of the people or the will

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like the consensus of the community to represent the best the community

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consensus um or something like that

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he I think this could be

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used to describe um currently what is being described in the

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current vision by saying it says right now in the vision it says

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we believe that all communities and organizations should have the tools and methods for and I think That's where

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this can be more specific here. Right now it says best possible decision making but I think exactly here we can

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be a bit more specific because best possible decision making can be interpreted as broad and it's up

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to interpretation per person and

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the what the describe and what I also think that

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is more of uh to the point uh description

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for what these tools and methods can be used for is exactly to get the consensus

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of the community or the represent the

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the consensus of the of the people that are within these communities and

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organizations. I think that's a bit more maybe that's something to improve

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because that way we'll maybe others would understand

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better our vision.

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That's just something I thought of on the back of what the said just now.

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So, you're suggesting I mean to me it seems like and then we talked about this the other day like um the best possible

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decision-m is then described and kind of qualified in a way in the next sentence

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in in both the original and also the current decision making. It's like repetitive then even

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it's like you're describing because this possible decision making is as I said up

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to interpretation by a lot of people that's why you feel the need to describe

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it further with the next sentence and so it's like because it's not that specific

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you feel the need to describe what is in our opinion best possible decision-

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making but in this case that means that I think what you're trying to say the

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first time by best possible decision- making could actually be more specific and it

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would serve a better purpose in here because you could still keep the fair,

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fast, and fun instead of also keeping best possible

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decision- making because you're explaining that anyway in the next sentence. So it's like

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you know a lot in a lot of cases uh when writing a short summary of

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vision mission you have to think is this adding value is every word adding value

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to to the reader and I that's why I'm I'm trying to to to

32:00

think of but sorry to interrupt No worries at all. Thank you for

32:06

sharing. I seek gave a couple thumbs up there too, I think. Um, that's a good point. Very interesting. So would you

32:13

suggest that we just change it to like something like we believe that all communities or organizations should have the tools and methods for fair, fast and

32:21

fun decision-m

32:28

maybe to say for should have the tools and methods to

32:35

represent the best well to represent the will of the community. a

32:42

a unanimous will of the community or

32:48

something along those lines. Was not unanimous. Okay. Not not unanimous, but

32:55

uh you say you think about it. [laughter]

33:02

So that's the way that Tadas explained it previously. It was he mentioned he explained the same thing twice in

33:08

different ways. And I have also tried to myself come up with explaining it and I

33:15

think we can try to explain it and come up with something that makes sense. Um

33:27

yeah, interesting points. Um of course if anybody wants to just jump

33:32

to any point then feel free. Um and yeah, I mean this goes back a little bit to something that Tadas mentioned

33:38

earlier too. We said like his first impression was that it made it longer and we did. If we go with the

33:45

version that doesn't include from improving quality of life of each individual to solving human grand challenge that shaves off like I don't

33:51

know 12 words or something like that. So that makes it significantly shorter but still it is three sentences

33:58

uh just with the current draft. And if we combine the first two sentences then that might be useful. Maybe I'll go

Dan shares the draft in Notion so everyone can comment and edit

34:03

ahead and share the screen again. Maybe that's useful just to see it all together. And then I can also share this

34:08

page too with everybody. Um maybe I'll share that in notion in case anybody wants to comment on there. Um

34:16

[clears throat and cough] all right. So um okay. So first I'll just pull it up.

34:23

Um and then I'll share it in a different window here. Uh so

34:30

yeah, one of the the comments that um Tadas had made about it just being

34:36

longer um is something I was wondering too and I

34:41

asked AI about it um just for some perspective on like what is the precedent and what other

34:47

um organizations do and I I had asked if it's like it's okay to have it three

34:52

sentences long and I said it's a reasonable editorial choice not a rule established research and it provided a

34:58

few examples that I guess had some longer shorter vision statements uh just

35:03

for whatever that's worth I guess um in case it's useful and then I'm going to

35:09

go ahead I'll just I'll just publish this link publicly so you can see it or actually maybe I'll just share access with you that that's probably what I'll

35:15

do uh so I'm sharing access in the link I think the second link will be

35:20

editable and I'll just give each one of you uh full access so you can leave any comments or write directly on the page

35:26

if you want too. Okay. Yeah, everybody has access now. Um and Rosemary wrote um

Dan reviews Rosmari's ideas about representing the will of the community

35:34

to represent the will of the community or to represent the collective fair voice of people. Um I mean one thing

35:41

about that is that it like I do like the fair fest and fun um and those explain

35:49

different things than represent the collective fair voice of people or represent the will of the community.

35:54

Like I'd say representing the will of the community or the collective voice of people is

36:00

about fairness basically, but it doesn't really capture the fast or the fun. And

36:05

I think both those are also valuable. Um, so I'm interested in those rom like

36:11

if you want to elaborate more on those more, but um to me it seems like maybe

36:16

the the the easier change that can kind of inherit some of the decisions we made

36:22

previously, which I think we're there's some good reason to include fast, fair, and fun. Um, open to doing differently,

36:29

but maybe if we could just integrate that and just combine these sentences. Um,

36:34

if it makes sense, if it's a good idea. Um, I'm also okay with best possible decision making because one thing that I

Dan explains why "best possible" sets an aspirational standard while acknowledging real world limits

36:41

don't that I think is not captured by fair, fast, and fun, you mentioned like

36:46

it's kind of repeating itself, but I feel like one thing that is very valuable from

36:53

this phrase, the best possible decision-m is because it

37:00

it establishes a like a standard or a threshold or a

37:09

a a an aspiration or a goal basically that it's not just fair, it's as fair as

37:16

it can be. And it's not just fast, it's as fast as it can be. And it's not just fun, it's as fun as it can be. It's the

37:23

best possible that can be. And these are three kind of variables upon which

37:28

decision-m can be good or great or the best. And to say it's the best possible

37:34

means it's the most fair. It's the most fast and it's the most fun. And that's like a higher standard of just saying,

37:42

"Oh, that was a fair decision and that was fast and that was fun. This is like this was a super fast decision. It was super fair and it was super fun." Like

37:47

that's the that's great. Um I wind up actually leaving after discussion

37:52

yesterday. I end up uh we were questioning the word about removing the word possible. Um and at first I wasn't

38:00

sure. before it seemed like it was kind of like like you made some good points for me that it wasn't a good idea to include the word possible and then I end

38:06

up doing like this pretty long voice memo just directly into the comments and I was talking about how like that word

38:13

explains some like some of the reality of the situation that like in any given situation when you're trying to make

38:18

decisions when when any individual or group is trying to make decisions there's always some some obstacles or

38:25

barriers like you don't always know all the decision at the time maybe not every decision-making experience can be as fair as it can or as fast or or as fun,

38:32

but it's like making the best out of every situation, dealing with the limitations in information that you have or the limitations maybe it's just a

38:38

tough situation or whatever. Um, and these are things that saying the best possible decision-m conveys in a way

38:44

that I think just saying having the tools and methods for fair, fast, and fun decision-m wouldn't convey. Um, so

38:52

yeah, I'm I'm planning to also Oh, I thought I did provide access already.

38:59

Let me make sure it says you have edit access for us. Maybe you should be able to edit it.

39:05

Maybe just refresh it. Yeah, you also should have edit access

39:11

because you're uh this is in the Eden creators documents. So you you should have edited access anyway, Rose.

39:18

Okay. Um I tried to log in u through the browser. I mean go into the browser

39:24

where I'm not logged in. Okay. But now I can edit it. Okay, cool. Um,

39:31

so yeah, I like these ideas. Um, that you share me, but currently I'm I'm

39:39

still most in favor of best uh best possible decision-making or or I also came with the idea of best decision-m

39:45

possible. I don't know if that's such a big change that was one thing I was considering where the possible should be. And then AI had also recommended

39:52

that it should say go with this rather than saying all the collective decisions should be fair, fast, and fun. It should be all decision making. All collective

39:59

decision- making should be fair, fast, and fun. Just because decisions aren't necessarily fun. Um, but decision-

40:05

making is fun. And that's that's really what we're talking about. I've written decisions, but it suggested decision-m. So, that's something I think is probably

40:12

good to do. I just wrote it in there. Feel free to disagree if you want. Um, I see Rosemary, you have your thoughts here. if you want to unmute and speak

40:18

more then feel free. Also, I'd be happy to go back to Zal's points too about um

40:24

his interest in like coordination, collective action too. I I I think one of the I I think one of the reasons why

40:30

I and also Rosemary was the first person who started talking about some of the stuff that inspired me to try to distill into this was that like it is about like

40:39

like you know the collective action like I I feel like the decision-making as I was saying before is a lever to do

40:45

collective action and really the end goal is to achieve shared goals and I agree with Tadas's point that

40:51

um like the the means justify

40:58

the ends. The ends don't justify the means. I think that's a great point from from Danny Lmer and I I appreciate you

41:03

bringing it back up. I kind of forgotten about that point. Um, and

41:10

I think that kind of like represents what I was trying to get across here that

41:16

the means is the best possible decision-m and then that leads to the output of

41:22

uh coordinating collective action and then it leads to the final output of achieving shared goals and as all was saying like you could have a corporation

41:28

with one CEO making all the collective decision-m um and they could coordinate collective

41:35

action and achieve shared goals. But that's not what really what we're focusing on really. What we're focusing

41:41

on is how communities and organizations could do collective decision-m to be

41:46

able to collectively coordinate action together and achieve their shared

41:51

goals. Um, and that's something that that that

41:57

the world would be much better place when there's better collective decision-m that can help coordinate collective action achieve these strict

42:02

goals. So I I'm I'm feeling currently I guess it's a pretty good representation of some things we're saying here. But I

42:07

see uh Tadas also shared a comment here uh in the chat. Do you want to unmute

42:15

and speak that to us or should I read out loud? Yeah. So, I don't know if uh that's full

Tadas shares that the best collective action for humanity is the one that represents the collective will of humanity

42:21

vision statement, but I just wonder if you're I I think I'm excited about this

42:28

statement and I think it represents my belief and I wonder if it represents

42:35

your belief and it sounds kind of ambitious which I like. So basically the

42:41

statement is we believe that the best possible collective action for humanity is the one that most accurately

42:48

represents collective will of humanity.

42:54

I'm going to pull up on the screen top so we can see it on screen too. Okay.

Dan asks whether this is meant as a vision statement and highlights operating at all scales

43:05

Okay. My my first question is uh do you believe that

43:13

[laughter] we believe that the best possible collective action for humanity is one that accurately represents collective

43:20

will of humanity. Uh that's big I feel that's a big question. Um

43:26

okay that's a big one. So,

43:39

and I'm not like I'm open to be to to ch to to challenge this.

43:48

Okay. Um, me has something to toggle. So, maybe we'll address that next. And

43:53

um I mean to me I'm not sure if that's right. If if I believe that I have to

43:59

analyze it. Um it depends I guess what you mean by collective will of humanity.

44:06

Um I mean my first thought when reading this was just that I don't know if you intended this to be the like

44:13

exactly what the purpose of this is. Is this something that you think would be in the vision statement or something like this? um or this is just kind of a

44:18

general thought. um just to see cuz it doesn't seem like

44:27

the same like kind of accomplishing the purpose of of the vision statement's

44:34

purpose like kind of envisioning a world in the future like and so the I guess

44:40

you can imagine like in five years all community organizations do have the tools and methods for the best decision making and that all collective decisions

44:46

are fair fast and fun and everyone is now empowered to coordinate collective action achieve future goal that like paints a picture of the future whereas

44:53

what you shared is kind of more like a belief that's not necessarily a vision. Is that right or

44:58

that's that's what I said like it's I don't think I'm I'm not sure if it's a

45:03

full vision but I I it's something I want to talk about in order to build

45:11

someone something I would want to talk about with you in order to build a

45:17

vision statement. Uh, okay. Thank you for clarifying and sorry if I just kind of just repeated what you

45:23

said there. Um, the current vision there just for context. Um, curious to hear what

45:29

Rosemary thinks and I think the one so I I think there's a lot of good points to

45:34

this statement. Um but well for one thing as far as a vision statement goes

45:41

I like like one of the things I was trying to convey with this sentence over here but um and I think we're trying to

45:47

convey by saying all community organizations and from improving the quality of life of each individual to

45:52

solving humanity grand challenges even though I think we're probably in agreement that we're not going to include this and we also this with like

45:58

we talked about the word throughout society is I think that like this is very focused on the largest scale Well,

46:05

like the grandest challenge is the most important things for humanity. I think it's also very important that our

46:11

decision-m processes and what our ultimate vision and mission is for is operative at all scales and it shows

46:17

people how they can commun how they can best make decisions and coordinate collective action if we go with that um and achieve shared goals at small scales

46:25

as well as large scales. And so I think that this this may be true, but even if

46:31

it's 100% true, I think that the the vision it's helpful to not just focus on just the biggest scale, but also focus

46:37

on those small scales, too. Uh, and then the one I suppose one part that I

46:47

might potentially disagree with in terms of how it's like what it's saying is that

46:53

I mean I don't know if the collective will of humanity

47:00

knows what's best. Like I think that partially like it's an iterative process

47:06

and that kind of goes back to what I was saying about making the best decision-m possible and and that was that was part

47:12

of my voice memo here that I did about possibly moving this possible to after decision-m because then it has two

47:17

meanings. one is like it's making the best uh the best possible decision-m experience at the moment, but it's also

47:24

making the best decision-m process possible in the future as well because

47:29

like given that there's a lack of, you know, clarity and information at any given time, you're making the best decision-m that you can at the time and

47:35

then it gets better in the future and then you can make a better decision-making process in the future. And I feel like um maybe years capture

47:40

this but maybe it doesn't totally capture it because humanity's the collective will will like be refined and

47:46

people the collective will might not know what to do right now but in a year if they make good decisions then the right path may reveal itself to

47:53

yes the collective humanity. I don't know if it's captured this this but this is what I mean what you just

Tadas explains how representing individual will helps people take responsibility and learn, connecting it to protopia

48:00

said like uh the I I mean that uh currently the best

48:08

collective action is the one that best represents the current will of humanity

48:14

and uh yeah and it should change after that

48:21

action humanity will learn and it will lead to

48:26

better next will of consensus of humanity and and so

48:32

on. Uh so back my background philosophy here is that if uh

48:40

the action of of community uh properly represents the will of its

48:46

individuals then each individual feels responsible for that action. And we have uh

48:55

basically we are able to learn from that action. we are able to take responsibility and we see how their uh

49:02

say vote leads to uh to to an action and

49:07

therefore we we feel like we have a handle on on on on collective action and

49:13

therefore we can learn and so uh and

49:18

that's a basis for better next decision.

49:26

Um it's and this is goes back to I guess the

49:33

concept of protopia or something like that. Mhm. Yeah. So I I believe in that. that

49:41

basically the the right goal is not to some specific end point where it's

49:47

basically iterative continuous progress towards something and uh yeah and at

49:54

each point in time we are trying the community should try to make uh

50:02

better uh decision.

50:08

Mhm. Yeah. Very interesting. [clears throat]

50:15

Thank you for sharing that. And yeah, I I want to I want to listen to this and think about it more deeply. We are at um

50:21

just at the top of the hour, so I suppose we can keep going for this a little bit, but we should wrap it up relatively soon so we can transition

50:26

into the second game and I also want to hear what Rosemary her suggestion that she had is. Um I suppose maybe one so uh

50:35

one other quick comment I just had in my mind about what you shared to doss is that uh

Dan prefers Tadas' community version, noting there is no way yet to measure the will of humanity

50:41

and this was more so okay so uh I don't know if you said this

50:47

out loud the second one but specifically but we believe that the best possible collective action for any community is

50:52

the one that most accur accurately represents the collective will of its participants. So, I like that more than

50:59

the top one. I think I I think the focus on humanity is is good. Like, it's interesting and I think that and and

51:04

that's one of the reasons why I wanted to include this part about solving humanity's grand challenge because I feel like there's just a lot of stuff that people have uncertainty about and

51:11

even if it's not in the vision statement because we're trying to keep it concise. I feel like, you know, people are concerned about, I don't know, AI or or

51:18

or or nature and uh or about all these different things. And it's like posing

51:24

and presenting better decision-m processes as a solution to these big uh

51:29

like problems or concerns that people have, I think, is useful. And so I like the fact that this first sentence

51:35

conveys that to some extent, but I also like how this is much easier to kind of grock with because one of my issues with

51:40

this too was like at this point there's no way to measure or indicate the collective will of humanity. Like maybe

51:47

if fractal decision-m process were everywhere then this would be easier to like uh to ascertain and and to say but

51:54

it's like at this point it it just it's super decentralized and there's no standard kind of decision-making process

52:00

or anything like that. So, I like uh I like the boldness and the idea of

52:05

this, but it's also tougher to like rally around and tougher to grock my mind all around. Whereas, this is like

52:10

much more um this one about accurately representing

52:15

the collective will of its participants. And Tash just came with another one here. Um is like easier to uh

52:24

to say that to say I confidently agree with it. And I think I still have to like think about it and look at it for a little while to see if like I I find any

52:31

sort of like holes or reasons why it wouldn't. But to me it seems like this is good and and this last one I'm going

52:37

to ask if you want to speak any more on this before we pass it over to Rosemary and maybe we'll extend this call for like five or 10 minutes and just cut

52:43

into the respect game a little bit and then we'll do reset game and like start at 10 minutes after top of the hour or something like that.

52:49

Okay. I'm turning off the generator. Okay. [laughter]

52:55

All right. Well, maybe you can save some some energy and

53:00

power the generator for uh for next time. If you didn't want to read this out loud or you want me to read it out loud, I'm curious to read this one.

Tadas shares a shorter version about the collective will of people

53:09

I mean, I'll go. The last one is I I wrote it as I was basically thinking of what you were just

53:17

saying. Uh so the last one is we believe that the best possible collective action

53:23

is the one that best represents collect collective will of people

53:30

or it could be I'm not sure maybe better would be the one that most accurately

53:37

represents the collective will of people. So it avoids like

53:44

complex terms like humanity or participants and it's shorter.

53:51

Mhm. Okay. I see Rosemary gave a thumbs up and Z put out a confetti cannon there.

53:57

So that seems like it struck a cord. Uh so very interesting. And I also like how going along with Z's uh preference and

54:06

Rosemary's intuition um about like connecting the collective action to the

54:12

collective will and I suppose will is kind of like a representation or uh

54:19

a distillation of decision making or like what people want their their

54:25

preference. would be interesting to analyze. Will uh but yes basically like what they have made their decision about

54:30

or or what they want basically. Um okay great. This has been Dr. Fman. Do you

54:36

want to share um your suggestion? Should I hit the toggle and do you want to speak about at all or does anybody have any comments on any of the stuff we're talking about here?

Rosmari likes "will of people" and considers whether "needs" could add emotional resonance

54:47

I like it. Yeah. The well of people is nice.

54:53

Although I also thought needs, collective needs of people. But well,

54:59

I suppose

55:06

yeah, not every action has to be out of a need. Some actions could be based off

55:11

out of creative creative impulse, for example. Yeah.

55:17

Might be a need too to creatively express themselves.

55:23

Yeah. But need implies, you know, that kind of neediness. I'm not sure that.

55:31

Mhm. The cuz the word need is nice like the

55:38

I mean needs people's needs cuz I cuz that's relatable

55:48

but that can also make it more wordy. um

55:54

maybe collective will will of people representing their needs but I don't

56:00

know that's just like one first thing to

56:06

make it more emotional I suppose or more emotionally like touching

56:13

cuz that sometimes works or like it's helpful to bring that emotional aspect

56:20

in I think the mission more so

56:26

uh through an example in some cases too um but like more descriptive writing in

56:33

that way also touch on needs cuz everyone has needs and society has a

56:41

lot of common needs but yeah we can come back to this next meeting too. here

56:48

and my suggestions are in there in the togo. The first one is I think it's

56:55

interesting but we're also at time maybe I can just read it or just

57:01

I mean it's just the four of us who respecting I don't know if we'll have more so we can just do our respecting presentations a bit shorter and if

57:07

that's good with Zal maybe we'll extend for another five more minutes so we have time for Rose Marie's comments here and

57:13

then any last closing thoughts maybe and then we'll wrap it up and then uh play respect game and then come back to this

57:19

topic next meeting. Does that sound like a good plan? Okay, I just had some ideas on

Rosmari presents her version, which keeps fair, fast, and fun and ends with solving humanity's grandest challenges

57:27

if we were to keep most of what was the vision bit from the current facto vision

57:35

and add and remove some or like move around some

57:43

words and pieces to make it I suppose more easier. easier to

57:52

understand when reading it out loud. That's what I came up with with the

57:58

first version. The first version is what I prefer like the one on the top which

58:04

is um we believe that all communities and organizations should have the tools

58:10

and methods to represent the best collective decision.

58:16

Fair, fast, and fun. This empowers everyone to more effectively coordinate towards a mission and solve humanity's

58:24

grandest challenges. If I was to edit it quickly now, I would

58:29

probably say to represent their best collective decision, not the best

58:35

collective decision because that's just improving grammar here.

58:41

But I'm keeping the fair, fast, and fun, which Dan likes,

58:46

and the best word too. I got rid of the decision

58:52

making, and I'm keeping the soul humanities grandest

58:58

challenges as something to end it, which I think is a strong ending.

Rosmari explains why she chose "collective decision" and added "towards a mission"

59:03

And I um just kind of simplified that um that

59:12

point in between collective well I put collective decision instead of decision making because I think the collective

59:19

decision is the like step after the decision making and

59:28

that's could be also more important than the actual decision making proc. process.

59:34

So that's why I put it there collective decision which is like the step after decision making because that's like the

59:41

full the full process involves these steps the not just the decision

59:47

making but the collective decision taken after the decision making is done and

59:54

that's why I put collective decision instead of decision making how it was before

1:00:02

and yeah and I put this empowers everyone to more effectively coordinate towards a mission because and this is

1:00:09

new. I put a mission in there. This is new because I think ultimately

1:00:16

any community or organization have their mission and that's why this process

1:00:25

um helps them with to achieve their mission to whatever the mission is.

1:00:31

And that's why like that's how if any community and organization have these

1:00:38

tools and methods to represent their best collective decision then I think

1:00:43

that's why that's how we can they can achieve their mission and solve humanity's grandest challenges. So I

1:00:49

think to me it makes sense. It's I think easy to read and understand

1:00:58

and that's why I I thought of this suggestion. I also really like what Tas came up with too. the la the last one

1:01:08

I think it was

1:01:14

we believe that the best possible collective dec collective action is the one that best represents

1:01:21

collective will of people to me this one is a little bit more sophisticated like I have to think of it

1:01:29

um because I maybe is shorter so of course more words

1:01:34

describe add more explanation to it. But I think it's

1:01:43

I I agree with that too. And then my second my second one, I

1:01:50

don't know if we should even review that cuz I just think the first one is is

1:01:55

better anyway.

1:02:02

All right. Thank you very much, Rosie. Um, very interesting thoughts. There's a

Dan thanks Rosmari and suggests continuing next meeting with an AI summary of the discussion

1:02:08

lot of comments that I could share there on uh and everything you said there. I appreciate you breaking it down and

1:02:15

like bits and pieces, all the different changes that you made and then the rationale why. Um, as well as sharing

1:02:21

your perspective on Tadas's too. Um I

1:02:28

I I see we have three thumbs up on Tadas's comment to come back to this next meeting and I think there's a lot

1:02:33

more we could discuss and I imagine that we could discuss this in more

1:02:40

like like we could easily discuss this for another hour. I see to sort of for me these statements provide what I think

1:02:45

the current vision lacks clarity on what best decision-m it is is and also what

1:02:51

fair approaches but I think it fails to capture I'm not sure what you mean by that us fair approach but I think it

1:02:58

fails to capture oh it fails to capture what lacks yeah what what I'm

1:03:04

what I think usage of word fear tries to

1:03:09

capture but I don't think it fully captures it H

1:03:16

okay. Thank you for clarifying. Yeah, it's interesting. Um, okay. Well, I I don't know the part of

1:03:24

me wants to respond to all these things that Rosemary said as well as what Tas said over here. Uh, but I also want to

1:03:30

refrain myself from continuing the meeting on for too long when we uh don't want to go for too long. So, does

1:03:37

anybody I I mean, if you want, we can extend this and do a quick respect game afterwards. That's that's fine with me.

1:03:43

We can talk more about this or we could just uh wrap it up now or if anybody has any final comments. I'm happy to also

1:03:49

save mine for afterwards. We can also use uh the uh the transcript of this

1:03:56

with AI to kind of like summarize where we're at too uh and things we discussed so we can pick up on our conversation. Like for example, during the next time

1:04:03

we talk about this um whether it be a little bit more now or in two weeks or

1:04:08

whatever, like maybe we can pick up on somebody's uh on some of Rosemary's thoughts. Um and kind of like see all

1:04:16

the things that she said kind of like how we kind of like discussed that for the one that I suggested, the one that I suggested. We didn't get a chance to do

1:04:21

that in as much detail for Rosemary's. So maybe it makes sense for the next time that we talk about this to go

1:04:27

deeper into Rosemary's suggestion and the rationale and we can either review the video or kind of like make a little summary of where we could pick up next

1:04:34

time where we left off as well as same with what Tadas is sharing here too. I think he's up to um some interesting

1:04:40

lines of thoughts here too. So we can come back to this and then like maybe just pick up where we left off. Uh and maybe it's best to say that for two

1:04:47

weeks from now. Um uh although of course we could talk about it before then too in the interactive telegram chat or um

1:04:53

if it be useful we could talk about it in a in a call or something before. Um does any have any thoughts or on how we

1:05:00

proceed now uh as well as any any closing thoughts that that you want to

1:05:07

make sure are uh said here um before we wrap up this discussion.

Tadas says goodbye and looks forward to returning to the topic

1:05:16

Yeah I have to go. Thanks for the meeting. Like I said, I'm I'm

1:05:24

would be excited to come back to this uh topic

1:05:30

assuming nothing more important comes up. Um

1:05:38

okay. Uh just by the way, do you want to share uh any contributions to the respect game real quick and we can

1:05:43

include your contributions in the respect game? No, nothing toward the fractal

1:05:50

specifically. Okay. Um, well, thanks for joining us and thanks for sharing all your thoughts

1:05:56

here. Um, and yeah, I'm looking forward to discussing this more with you next time. Uh, as well as the other stuff I

1:06:02

discussed with the infrastructure. We can get to that next time, too. So, um, I hope you have a great night.

1:06:07

Okay. See you. See you. See you.

1:06:13

and Rose Marie saw. Any last thoughts or should we wrap up the discussion? Stop playing a respect game.

1:06:22

I think by the way we can include Tadas's contributions. He said nothing specifically for eating fractal, but I know the stuff that he's working on is

1:06:27

or at least some of the stuff he's working on is quite related to Eden Fractal. Yeah, we can include that.

1:06:39

Any last thoughts? Seems you got something on your mind. If you want to share more, you can. No, I mean, we can play the game.

1:06:50

Okay, sounds good. I think my vision was pretty good. I think it's pretty good, too. I mean,

Dan asks whether tools represent the best decision or help make it, and Rosmari agrees to use "make"

1:06:55

[laughter] I I uh I don't know if represent the best decision-m do tools

1:07:01

and methods represent the best collective decision- making or or or there and you remove making. Do tools

1:07:08

and methods represent the best decision or do they help you make the decision? So that was one that was one question I

1:07:14

had. I like both. They represented too.

1:07:20

Yeah, that's true. They do. But [laughter] [clears throat] yes, I don't know if represent is the best word though cuz represent is like uh

1:07:28

like represent is kind of like present. Maybe just present.

1:07:35

Yeah. But I don't I I I I think it's more about making the decision than presenting it.

1:07:41

To me anyway. Like I like your vision. I think it's very good too. Uh but to me

1:07:47

like presenting or representing is kind of like uh you can have an app that shows what decision you made for example. But what matters is not just

1:07:54

having tools and methods that show the decision that you made but help you actually make the best decision.

1:08:01

So, and that goes back to like the removal of decision making as well

1:08:06

because you kind of changed making for representing I think. Um, and then I

1:08:11

like the word possible for the reasons we discussed too. Okay. We can do make instead of

1:08:17

represent. So, uh, we that all community

1:08:22

organizations should have the tools and methods to make the best collective decisions.

1:08:28

That's interesting.

1:08:38

to make is that it is to make the best

1:08:45

collective decisions. Yeah,

1:08:51

that's interesting the way you have it written there because it focuses not on decision- making but making the best

1:08:56

collective decisions fair, fast, and fun, which explains the process of decision- making without calling it

1:09:02

decision- making. And decision-m has always been a little bit long. um need that word

1:09:08

but making decision but making decisions is kind of like simple than decision- making in a way and

1:09:14

to make the best collective decisions focused and fun

Rosmari calls the word "possible" a black hole, and Dan agrees removing it simplifies the statement

1:09:19

and that's better than possible you think I mean what's possible this the word

1:09:25

possible just it's a I think it's a a little black hole

1:09:32

it is a little black hole it is yeah you talk about it for a long time and still not be sure if that's

1:09:41

if that's all that's possible cuz anything is possible and if you just

1:09:48

by like mentioning the word possible it's like makes me question well

1:09:53

what's what's not possible then that's what I tried to explain yesterday

1:09:59

I know well did that make sense though how I explained it and how it does cuz that's what I was trying to say I think

1:10:04

he was thinking similar lines how you can only make the best decision that you can at that moment given that what you

1:10:10

know and given that the circumstances and then you know the next day you can make a better decision and have a better and the next day you can

1:10:16

that by default like if that's what your

1:10:21

uh telos was that the word telos like the ultimate purpose

1:10:27

telosis yeah that's what your the psychology behind your how you work is

1:10:35

to try to do to try to make the best decision given the what you know

1:10:41

then you don't really like then I don't think that needs to be described in the

1:10:47

vision in this case but I think that's something that it's just

1:10:54

I don't know if it really works if you just like read it as part of the like if you if you actually practice it and then

1:11:04

then you don't really need to read it. And I

1:11:10

suppose that's why for me it's like I don't think that's I don't see a need

1:11:15

to write possible. But let's say for someone who's not

1:11:24

maybe if that's something new to them, I don't know if that would really impact

1:11:31

them if they read that.

1:11:38

So for that reason, I think it kind of adds for me like a bit of confusion. I'm

1:11:43

okay with just like leaving it there either and like not touching it. Not touching the the worst possible and just

1:11:50

like sticking with it. [laughter]

1:12:01

I guess if you want to keep it then we can talk about like maybe just like talk

1:12:08

more about what it brings to the sentence.

1:12:17

or something. Yeah. Well, you you were convincing me

1:12:22

there that you're right that possible doesn't need to be there. You made a good point about uh

1:12:28

about like it is intrinsically like or kind of like obvious. It may not be obvious, but

1:12:34

it may be obvious like the the best decision making or making the best decision if it's really the best

1:12:41

decision um and it's possible anyway, right?

1:12:47

Yeah. And like um that's that's always a constraint that

1:12:52

maybe what you think is the best decision today won't be the best decision tomorrow because you get more

1:12:58

information tomorrow or something like that. But at the time that is the best decision

1:13:04

is um it's not just the best decision possible, it's the best decision. Um and it does simplify it. Um just

1:13:11

removing possible and and I like I really like your first sentence here. Um I think this might be a better uh

1:13:19

better distillation than we previously had. We believe that all community organizations have the tools and methods

1:13:25

for the best. Oh no, I was reading the wrong one. My bad. Um [laughter]

1:13:30

No, thank you. Yeah, never mind. I don't like yours. No, I'm just joking. I mean, we can say for the best instead

1:13:36

of to make the best. Well, I like I like how you

1:13:41

would simplifying it too. Uh for the best collective decisions. No, I I think make is good here because

1:13:47

if we remove if we remove make from decision making then if we write just

1:13:53

just how you have it basically we believe that all communities and organizations should have the tools and methods to make the best collective

1:13:58

decisions fair, fast and fun. I think that's a really nice first sentence. Um and I think that I mean I also want

1:14:07

to review the stuff I said previously about like yesterday I felt pretty confident with the word possible. I'd like to review that and then compare

1:14:13

with what you just said here and see if like I still prefer that for whatever reason. But I I I think the way that you have it right now is like a really

1:14:18

elegant way to put it. Um that's makes makes it simpler and makes it nicer and

1:14:23

and captures it basically without being too verbose. So I think when you say solve humanity's

1:14:29

grandest challenges in a way that's like you kind of saying

1:14:35

possible because but being more

1:14:41

implicit about it. Explicit, I would say. I knew that.

1:14:47

Yeah, being more explicit about that.

1:14:53

I don't know if I'm bothering you with that. I mean, possible. Solve humanity's grandest challenges.

1:15:05

lots of big that's that's not ne trying to get across by possible like possible can

1:15:12

also be some relatively small but important decision making or

1:15:19

decision for some local community that's not like humanity's grandest challenge but they're just making the best decision possible at that moment for

1:15:26

that community possible can operate on large scales and small scales although I

1:15:32

see what you mean that it could put more like kind emphasis on on the large scale that this is like the biggest possible

1:15:39

but um I think it also kind of operates in a different way like um

1:15:45

oh yeah it has a lot of meanings. Mhm.

Dan shares his current preference, combining Rosmari's first sentence with a shorter second sentence

1:15:53

My current preference is uh to keep your first sentence.

1:15:58

We believe that all community organizations should have the tools and methods to make the best collective decisions fair, fast and fun. And then

1:16:05

to uh keep the original last sentence or not,

1:16:12

not the original last sentence. I think you probably made good points about removing the from improving the quality

1:16:18

of life of each individual to solving humanity's greatest challenges. Um and

1:16:23

just keep the first part of that that I had previously. So it would be we believe that all communities or organizations should have the tools and

1:16:28

methods to make the best collective decisions fair, fast, and fun. This empowers everyone to more effectively

1:16:34

coordinate collective action and achieve shared goals. I I like that um because I think that's

1:16:41

like quite succinct and um I like the stuff you said about the

1:16:47

coordinate towards a mission and and solving human granite challenges but um

1:16:54

I don't know like I think that coordinate collection we have collection twice if that's what you want to keep.

1:17:01

Maybe I'll share my screen again and we can see what we're talking about here. Okay. and then we can just do a quick

1:17:06

respecting at the end after the discussion if that's good with you all. Um

1:17:12

so maybe I'll just put underneath to do I

1:17:17

guess. Um so my current or or maybe I'll have it um under here

1:17:25

where it has my drafts already there. Um, maybe I'll put these in header threes. And I'll put Dan,

1:17:32

Dan's thoughts, Rosemary's thoughts, and Dos's thoughts all in header three. Uh,

1:17:37

if you don't mind, Rose, I'll just put this into a header three and DS's thoughts here. Just so it's a bit better organized. Uh,

1:17:44

I'll put current vision in header three at the top, too.

1:17:50

Okay. alternatives.

1:18:00

So

1:18:08

if I take your first sentence here and I add the sentence here. Um

1:18:16

yeah, see you have colle collective twice.

1:18:26

Yeah. Um, I mean, I don't know if that's a bad thing, but you maybe it's it's a bit

1:18:32

redundant. Um, we could replace it with like together or something like that.

Rosmari asks about her second sentence, and Dan explains why "a mission" may sound singular

1:18:38

What don't you want about the second my second sentence?

1:18:44

Um well I think that I mean for one thing

1:18:50

I don't um towards a mission sounds

1:18:56

a bit um singular like I might make it sound like might

1:19:02

make it seem like everybody has to have the same mission in a way like everybody's coordinating towards the same mission. So if if you changed it to

1:19:10

their vi mission then that might be better. Um but a mission has an

1:19:16

implication that some people might interpret. Um also some some groups

1:19:22

might not have a formal mission like for example Eden Fractal didn't have a mission formally for like a year and a

1:19:28

half but uh they should they might have it informally. It's not supposed it's not

1:19:34

mission. It's not just within the scope of

1:19:40

defined mission statement like business wise.

1:19:47

Yeah. Generally speaking, each community like that's what that's the why a community is formed. They have a

1:19:55

I think a mission or a goal. You you say in your in your

1:20:03

example you have achieve shared goals. Yeah, I would say Eden Fractal definitely had a shared goal in the

1:20:09

beginning as an example but it did not have a mission that at least not explicitly defined maybe implicit but

1:20:15

people there was very different ideas about Eden's mission and people had like

1:20:20

a lot of complaints about that actually. They're like what's the mission? What's the mission [laughter] if you remember?

1:20:27

Yeah. I even saw that one of the earliest Eden

1:20:32

fractals you have a episode about the mission. Mhm. Like Yep. There's a bunch of proposals and a

1:20:39

bunch of like that. Okay. Maybe not a mission then. Yeah. Because I think a lot of

1:20:44

communities like it's true like and even back to one example of like a community that was trying to be very organized.

1:20:50

Most communities don't aren't nearly even trying to be that organized and they don't have a mission at all. Like

1:20:56

it's just like a bunch of people who have shared goals. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.

1:21:05

So, we can keep achieve shared goals. Mhm. Which one is the one that which one is

1:21:12

the one that we we're working on now? Uh I I don't know. I suggested this one

1:21:18

was was my favorite one here. Um but I don't know if that's the one we're working on. That's just the one that I'm

1:21:24

Okay. Uh, and I don't know about coordinating action together. I think you made a good point about collective action. I also thought about just making

1:21:30

it so it's like just to more effectively coordinate action

1:21:36

uh or or just more effectively coordinate and achieve shared goals. I don't know if you need to say collective

1:21:41

action or action either. I mean, that's what I have. This empowers everyone to more effectively

1:21:46

coordinate. Um, well, you have coordinate towards a

1:21:52

mission. I mean we can say coordinate shared

1:21:58

goals. Coordinate and achieve shared goals.

1:22:04

Coordinate towards shared goals. And also the word towards I think is

1:22:09

kind of like a little bit more passive like okay coordinate action you say?

1:22:16

Yeah. Coordinate action is one idea. Coordinate action and achieve your goals. I think that's pretty good because I think it's

1:22:22

okay cool. Yeah. All right. All right. I like that. Solve humanity's grandest challenges.

Dan explains why he included humanity's grandest challenges, from biodiversity and AI to clean water

1:22:28

Didn't you come up with that? What's that? I Yeah. With my help. Yeah. I came up with that. Basically,

1:22:34

you came with all these ideas and then I you inspired me and then I said that and

1:22:41

then you were like, "Oh, I like that. I like that. That's good. I think you're on to something." And so that was a big part of the reason why I included that.

1:22:46

And I did feel like, you know, just just noticing I kind of mentioned before, but like, you know, people don't know,

1:22:53

people have concerns and they don't know how all these big grand challenges will be solved. Like for example, we were

1:22:59

watching the documentary that uh Sebastian shared about living on earth and living with biodiversity in nature

1:23:05

and there's all these big problems about people cutting down rainforests and animals not having proper biodiversity

1:23:12

and people on Twitter are all concerned or at least a lot of them are concerned about artificial intelligence and how

1:23:18

the world would be governed and how that could have great great benefits but also

1:23:24

introduce a lot of challenges and all this other stuff. you know, people for years talk about, I don't know, g global

1:23:30

warming or or tyranny in government or all these different things that that could be bad. Um, and or would be bad if

1:23:37

they happened. And then there's also other things like for example, people not having food like that. That's

1:23:42

something or people getting diseases like that's something that's plagued humanity for for millennia, you know,

1:23:48

not having clean drinking water and having diseases and having uh shelter and all those things like that. like I

1:23:54

want to like I I I I added that because I wanted to cover these things. I wanted

1:23:59

to make it clear for people. Um your statement's statement made me think that maybe if we just said something like

1:24:05

this empowers everyone to more effectively coordinate and achieve shared goals. If if it's obvious to people what that means and what kind of

1:24:11

shared goals and coordination that we include then I don't need to include solve manage grand challenges. But to me

1:24:16

it's like I wanted to convey that you know similar to this this picture about

1:24:23

the the archimedia's lever like it's not just making a better decision and

1:24:28

coordinate collective action to like I don't know make some small changes in life that is also what it can do but

1:24:34

it's also you can move the earth with with enough leverage and that these decision-m processes give you enough

1:24:40

leverage and so I like that you still included the uh the solving humanity

1:24:46

challenges. But I also still wanted to include that it's not only about solving

1:24:51

humanitarian grand challenges like it's also and I don't know maybe maybe it doesn't need to be included but like all

1:24:56

these smaller improvements like you know somebody I don't know in Vietnam or something or like any country

1:25:04

like yes they want to solve humanitarian challenges but they also have a bunch of other things that they need to solve like they need to uh pay for their rent

1:25:12

and and they need to uh coordinate with their community to make their school better and to get better drinking water

1:25:18

for their community or whatever it is. And like we also need to meet people where they are and like those are

1:25:24

problems that need to be solved just as much as coordinating to solve grandest challenges of humanity. So I like the

1:25:31

focus on um solving the grandest challenges of humanity and maybe we just want to focus on that because maybe

1:25:36

that's just our target. But it's okay. It's okay. I'm okay. I'm over it. Okay. Yeah. Well, I I just to continue,

Dan emphasizes that small goals matter as much as big ones and prefers "achieve shared goals"

1:25:44

I think it's also important to focus on like the small as well as the big and you know, small is relative to big, but

1:25:50

small is also big, you know, in certain people's lives. Small can be very big for each individual uh you know,

1:25:55

relatively to the big humanity. Um, so that's why I just that's why I

1:26:02

if we had to pick between achieving shared goals and uh solving humanity's grandest

1:26:08

challenges in in our vision statement, I would probably pick achieving shared

1:26:13

goals because it includes uh solving humanity's greatest grand challenges as well as improving the

1:26:19

quality of life for each individ for each individual. Um but I'm also open to including both to including achieving

1:26:26

shared goals including uh like manage grand challenges because

1:26:32

that does like help to show uh with this um like this Archimedia's lever thing

1:26:39

which might not be obvious to people just how powerful this is um and how much it can help people um like how much

1:26:46

leverage there is from better decision-making process because I want to emphasize like the importance of

1:26:51

leverage which um thanks for the heart by the way is all carries so if you have any thoughts here and also Rose I see that you uh shared some guidelines here

1:26:58

um and also we've been going on for your while I'm I'm happy to keep talking about this but we're also 20 minutes 25

1:27:04

minutes from the top of the end of the respect game too so I just checking that time um we can of course see the respect

1:27:10

game quickly but um I just want to uh check in there do you

1:27:15

have any thoughts or something that you want to share here or any response to what I shared yeah I like your response And after a

Rosmari shares guidance that vision statements are often one to two sentences

1:27:23

quick search on how long should a vision statement be, it says two sentence, one

1:27:29

to two long average to two words.

1:27:35

So better not try to like make it

1:27:41

longer. I mean just

1:27:46

if it's so so so I counted how many words there are

1:27:52

and right now it's like that more than 30 with the latest on the on the latest

1:27:58

version we're working at. Mhm.

1:28:06

Yeah. We can also just consider not adding anything after fair fast and fun.

1:28:12

But that's around

1:28:17

that's very similar what we have now and I um I mean just changing the wording around.

1:28:24

Yeah. But that doesn't capture like what for example Zah was talking about and what you were talking about too about

1:28:30

the if we call collective action or achieving shared goals or whatever like that's the stuff that really inspired me

1:28:36

to think about this because I was like let's just keep the vision the same if you remember our conversation a couple

1:28:41

nights ago and then you were like yeah but and then you shared like a 15-minute

1:28:47

impassion speech about how it could you have a vision where that could be better in this way and this way and this way

1:28:52

and my uh thing that I was trying to distill from that understand was more about like

1:28:58

it wasn't just the decision- making it was what people do with the decisions and it's how the decision-m helps people

1:29:04

to uh coordinate and to achieve shared goals basically

1:29:11

um okay so I mean I'm open to keeping it the same too I'm not saying we have to change it

1:29:16

but but I do think that adding in something like this second sentence helps and I think what you did here is

1:29:21

really valuable because that makes it from two sentences to three sentences I Also this um this practice I don't know

Dan discusses the memorability test and trims the draft to about 31 words

1:29:28

exactly how like I don't know where you got this from if that's totally

1:29:34

Google true. Okay. So I mean I agree with the memorability test. I think maybe that's

1:29:39

the most important than this that it could be short enough that your stakeholders committee members can complete it completely from memory. And

1:29:45

I've gotten good where I can completely repeat the current vision statement from memory and I do it often. Um, so that's

1:29:53

like a very valuable thing around this word count being 15 words. I don't know how much I trust that. Um, and anything

1:30:00

over 30 words becomes hard for your team to remember. I could see the point, but I don't know if that's true. And I I

1:30:07

think it was a good point, but like this I also just checked this for example, and that's 35 words.

1:30:14

Um, I mean, if we wanted to, we could trim, we could like remove more effectively.

1:30:19

We could say this empowers or this helps everyone coordinate action and achieve shared goals. That's like a shorter way to do it. Um if if we use helps rather

1:30:27

than empowers and then we use um

1:30:32

like this helps everyone to coordinate and achieve shared goals. Like that's that's a way we can trim it down to 31

1:30:39

words. I think that is now um which still gets a lot of the same point. Um

1:30:44

helps is a little bit weaker than empowers. You can use empower as word instead of helps is one word.

1:30:51

Okay. Yeah, that's true. Uh this empowers everyone to coordinate and achieve their goals. So,

1:30:57

and I guess the word action maybe isn't necessary. Um because

1:31:03

but action kind of does action. Um where's the actual word?

1:31:08

Well, the actions here. I removed that, but I don't know. Maybe it is necessary. Like if I went to the dictionary like

1:31:14

I'm not sure you can see my screen but action is like the fact process of doing something typically to achieve an aim.

1:31:20

Um the way which yeah the process of doing something

1:31:25

typically to achieve an aim. So um I don't know like

1:31:33

if people are coordinating I guess people will assume that coordinating involves coordinating action uh and

1:31:40

achieve shared goals kind of implies that action is made because you can't really achieve a goal if action is not

1:31:46

made. Um so I think we could probably safely remove action. Um, but I'm not

1:31:54

not totally sure, but that gets it down to like 32 words and like that. And I think this is

1:32:01

easy enough to remember. Um, so I don't know. I'm pretty happy with I

1:32:07

think it sounds pretty good. Um, you have any other thoughts or should we um

1:32:13

wrap up the discussion and play a quick respect game?

1:32:20

I guess we can continue next time. Okay.

1:32:26

Well, I'm glad that we had uh this extra discussion. I think that was more valuable than going to play a respect

1:32:31

game right away. Um and I think we made a lot of progress and I think overall the even though it's

1:32:38

a lot of progress in just like a couple words here and there. Um like I think that this is really

1:32:45

really important and picking these words has a lot of leverage. Um, and I think that personally I feel a lot better

1:32:51

about this right now or something like that than than our original one. I think uh everybody's thoughts here have been

1:32:58

very valuable in um helping us to make a more compelling vision that can ultimately help Eden Fractal and the

1:33:06

Fractal ecosystem create a much bigger impact in the world. Um and also

1:33:12

uh yeah well you'll leave at that for now. We can talk more about it later. I see

Dan reads Tadas' comments about clarity on best and fair decision-making and protopia

1:33:18

also uh left some comments. Um he said, "For me, these statements provide what

1:33:24

he thinks the current vision lacks. Clarity on what best and fair decision-m is." Good point. So maybe we might want

1:33:32

to improve on that. And he mentioned build a fuller statement by mentioning how we believe this will lead to Ptopia.

1:33:39

Um interesting.

1:33:44

Okay. Uh well, yeah, we'll talk about it more next time, I suppose. And uh with that, I suppose we could just go ahead

1:33:51

and uh play a respect game. So, uh hopefully you enjoyed the

1:33:57

conversation, too. Um and obviously, Rosemary is all of you need and just jump in. But otherwise, we'll uh we'll

1:34:04

save this for next time. Um I was giving a thumbs up. I saw Zel gave a heart at

Dan shares an AI analysis document and a draft proposal for the council process

1:34:09

some point too, I think. Um oh also one other thing I had too I don't know if this is useful but I had um this other

1:34:16

analysis document this so most of this document I didn't show uh but in case it's useful and you can see this has

1:34:21

also uh some analysis on different words here that I did with AI um this is just

1:34:27

the result of like a halfhour long voice memo that specifically prompted this and it kind of like goes into different

1:34:32

options for the first sentence and it kind of gave its own AI judgment on how

1:34:38

it like the wording for the first sentence. And what was the second sentence that we might have merged? I think we merged it in third sentence. So

1:34:44

if anyone wanted to check that out then they can. I was also planning on making an audio file too listen to this. So I'll add that but no need obviously I

1:34:50

think our discussion has been more useful and probably some of this is a little bit outdated now. Um and then

1:34:56

there's also oh there's one other kind of document I created too but um oh

1:35:02

here's just a proposal. Um so I I suppose on the back of this once we form consensus on something if we decide that

1:35:08

it's worth changing it then we can actually make a proposal with the Eden postal consensus process um with us as

1:35:14

delegates or whoever will be elected and delegated at that time we can make such a proposal and then you know implement

1:35:19

and stuff like that. Um, so I started drafting that based on the old one, um, or the original one I suggested. But

1:35:24

yeah, I think that now that we've had this discussion, I think we've improved upon my my vision here. And I think that

Dan thanks everyone and plans to share the video with Tadas before the next meeting

1:35:29

this put us in a really good position uh to uh to achieve our mission and vision better um in the in the coming months.

1:35:38

So thanks again versus Marie and uh Z for the conversation as well as uh to do

1:35:43

a big shout out there. And I'll share this video with Dossi so he can see what we said in uh preparation for the next meeting too.